Clarification: can you play a card when you've chosen it, without discarding another one?

moof commented

2026-06-23 17:08:33 +00:00

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There is no clear mechanism with cards in the game, but Curse of the Empty Mind introduces the concept of a card being "chosen".

The explanatory rules for the card say "this curse never enters your hand; it is played the moment it chosen"

We could just rewrite the text to not include the word "chosen", but I want to explore this a little bit.

So, a proposed mechanism:

Drawing is the act of taking cards off the top of the deck
Choosing is deciding which cards you would like to have, up to the maximum allowed.
At this stage you may discard cards from your hand in order to make those chosen cards fit into it
Picking is the act of placing them into your hand
Discarding them is placing the card into the discard pile

So, this begs two questions:

a. Is playing a card in order to make space in your hand in stage 3 allowed?
b. Is playing a chosen card allowed, without first putting it into your hand?

The consequence of b is that you could draw 3 cards, choose 1, and play it, without needing to discard in order to make it fit into your hand first. Is this how we have been playing?

The card itself implies that b is not the case, except for this special card.

A corollary question, though, is:

c. Does "pick one" imply we have to include one of the cards into our hand? Can we discard all the drawn hands?

This makes the Curse of the Empty Mind much more amenable, as if you get it in an early Draw one, Pick one situation, you can decide to just discard it.

So maybe what we need to do is:

Clarify that "Pick one" does not imply you have to put one in your hand; you can discard all drawn cards.
Clarify that cards must be put into the hand before being played. In other words, if you have reached your hand limit, you must discard before accepting the new card into your hand, and then play it, which leaves your hand with one card fewer.
Clarify that in the case of this card, it does not need to enter you hand to play it.

This begs further questions:
d. In this situation, with this card, you're effectively not "picking" it. So if you play it before picking, can you still pick another of the drawn cards?
e. Does the hand limit expand to allow those three more cards? I'd say that's fair, given the casting cost.
f. Does the prohibition to draw more cards extend to existing "Discard 1, Draw 2" cards and so on? Again, fairness seems to imply it should. But in that case we specify that the deck needs shuffling after the choosing happens.

There is no clear mechanism with cards in the game, but [Curse of the Empty Mind](https://jtlg.eu/qmd3) introduces the concept of a card being "chosen". The explanatory rules for the card say "this curse never enters your hand; it is played the moment it chosen" We could just rewrite the text to not include the word "chosen", but I want to explore this a little bit. So, a proposed mechanism: 1. Drawing is the act of taking cards off the top of the deck 2. Choosing is deciding which cards you would like to have, up to the maximum allowed. 3. At this stage you may discard cards from your hand in order to make those chosen cards fit into it 4. Picking is the act of placing them into your hand 5. Discarding them is placing the card into the discard pile So, this begs two questions: a. Is playing a card in order to make space in your hand in stage 3 allowed? b. Is playing a chosen card allowed, without first putting it into your hand? The consequence of b is that you could draw 3 cards, choose 1, and play it, without needing to discard in order to make it fit into your hand first. Is this how we have been playing? The card itself implies that b is not the case, except for this special card. A corollary question, though, is: c. Does "pick one" imply we *have* to include one of the cards into our hand? Can we discard all the drawn hands? This makes the Curse of the Empty Mind much more amenable, as if you get it in an early Draw one, Pick one situation, you can decide to just discard it. ---- So maybe what we need to do is: 1. Clarify that "Pick one" does not imply you have to put one in your hand; you can discard all drawn cards. 2. Clarify that cards must be put into the hand before being played. In other words, if you have reached your hand limit, you must discard before accepting the new card into your hand, and *then* play it, which leaves your hand with one card fewer. 3. Clarify that in the case of this card, it does not need to enter you hand to play it. This begs further questions: d. In this situation, with this card, you're effectively not "picking" it. So if you play it before picking, can you still pick another of the drawn cards? e. Does the hand limit expand to allow those three more cards? I'd say that's fair, given the casting cost. f. Does the prohibition to draw more cards extend to existing "Discard 1, Draw 2" cards and so on? Again, fairness seems to imply it should. But in that case we specify that the deck needs shuffling after the choosing happens.

moof commented

2026-06-23 17:10:35 +00:00

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The Jet Lag: Europa consensus is "After playing this curse, you may still play any cards in your hand that enable you to draw additional cards (e.g. Discard 1, Draw 2)."

They haven't clarified what "choosing" means. They have implied you are not forced to pick any card that is drawn.

The Jet Lag: Europa consensus is "After playing this curse, you may still play any cards in your hand that enable you to draw additional cards (e.g. Discard 1, Draw 2)." They haven't clarified what "choosing" means. They have implied you are not forced to pick any card that is drawn.

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2026-06-23 17:10:50 +00:00

moof commented

2026-06-23 17:20:21 +00:00

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We could, of course, just rewrite the card into something less ambiguous such as:

This card must be played before you pick the cards to put into your hand. This card may be discarded and a different one drawn if you do not want to pick it.

Search through the deck and choose any three cards to add to your hand. If necessary, your hand limit will expand to accommodate these cards. You must then shuffle the deck.

Casting cost: You may not draw any further cards as rewards for asking questions.

We could, of course, just rewrite the card into something less ambiguous such as: > This card must be played before you pick the cards to put into your hand. This card may be discarded and a different one drawn if you do not want to pick it. > > Search through the deck and choose any three cards to add to your hand. If necessary, your hand limit will expand to accommodate these cards. You must then shuffle the deck. > > **Casting cost:** You may not draw any further cards as rewards for asking questions.

nander commented

2026-06-24 10:49:05 +00:00

I think the phases of the turn can be merged together a bit, keeping it simpler. The way I see it answering a question has a few phases:

Answer question
Draw n cards
Add 0..m cards to hand. these cards all move from 'drawn cards' to 'hand cards' instantly
Play + discard down to

The play+discard down to limit is a state which I think a team ends up in any time they somehow end up over the hand limit, no matter for what reason. I think they then must play/discard down to the card limit, staying in that "game state" until they are below/at hand limit again. Game-wise I'd say they first ought to resolve being above limit before doing different game actions. My reasoning for this is that deferring going down to hand limit does not sound like it's fulfilling the spirit of a hand limit.
That is, I don't think hiders should be permitted to keep their options open (with respect to what to play/discard and when) for as long as possible.

This also means that if a team goes over-limit due to something like empty mind, then they can immediately play any combo of cards just to get down below the limit.
This also allows the hiders to play 7th seal in the 4th phase above if they have the right cards in their hand + newly drawn card. In the way I'm suggesting the newly drawn card has no special status anymore after step 3.

Finally, it clearly resolves the situation where the hiders may get their reward twice; discarding/playing to get below hand limit must be done inbetween the two reward cycles (if they are over limit)

I think the phases of the turn can be merged together a bit, keeping it simpler. The way I see it answering a question has a few phases: 1. Answer question 2. Draw n cards 3. Add 0..m cards to hand. *these cards all move from 'drawn cards' to 'hand cards' instantly* 4. Play + discard down to The play+discard down to limit is a state which I think a team ends up in any time they somehow end up over the hand limit, no matter for what reason. I think they then must play/discard down to the card limit, staying in that "game state" until they are below/at hand limit again. Game-wise I'd say they first ought to resolve being above limit before doing different game actions. My reasoning for this is that deferring going down to hand limit does not sound like it's fulfilling the spirit of a hand limit. That is, I don't think hiders should be permitted to keep their options open (with respect to what to play/discard and when) for as long as possible. This also means that if a team goes over-limit due to something like empty mind, then they can immediately play any combo of cards just to get down below the limit. This also allows the hiders to play 7th seal in the 4th phase above if they have the right cards in their hand + newly drawn card. In the way I'm suggesting the newly drawn card has no special status anymore after step 3. Finally, it clearly resolves the situation where the hiders may get their reward twice; discarding/playing to get below hand limit *must* be done inbetween the two reward cycles (if they are over limit)

moof commented

2026-06-24 11:41:14 +00:00

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I definitely agree that an individual cycle should be closed. The current rule book explicitly states that

So, for example, a question that would typically allow a hider to draw 3 cards and keep 1 would now allow a hider to draw 3, keep 1, then draw 3, and keep 1 again (importanty: hiders cannot draw 6 and keep 2, they must draw 3 and pull 1 two seperate times, in this example.) Should seekers want to ask a question a third time, its cost would be triple; a fourth time, the cost quadrupled, and so on.

I think that’s pretty much settled.

When you say

Game-wise I'd say they first ought to resolve being above limit before doing different game actions.

what do you mean? The hider shouldn’t answer questions before resolving the hand limit? What sequence of events are you trying to avoid?

I definitely agree that an individual cycle should be closed. The current rule book explicitly states that > So, for example, a question that would typically allow a hider to draw 3 cards and keep 1 would now allow a hider to draw 3, keep 1, then draw 3, and keep 1 again (importanty: hiders cannot draw 6 and keep 2, they must draw 3 and pull 1 two seperate times, in this example.) Should seekers want to ask a question a third time, its cost would be triple; a fourth time, the cost quadrupled, and so on. I think that’s pretty much settled. When you say > Game-wise I'd say they first ought to resolve being above limit before doing different game actions. what do you mean? The hider shouldn’t answer questions before resolving the hand limit? What sequence of events are you trying to avoid?

nander commented

2026-06-24 11:46:37 +00:00

I mostly want to make sure that they don't start handling multiple card draw cycles at the same time. I dunno how to phrase that exactly.

As another thing, I think we should put somewhere in bold-italic-underlined that the hiders may choose not to keep a card, even if something says "draw and keep x cards".

I mostly want to make sure that they don't start handling multiple card draw cycles at the same time. I dunno how to phrase that exactly. As another thing, I think we should put somewhere in bold-italic-underlined that the hiders may choose not to keep a card, even if something says "draw and keep x cards".

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2026-06-26 00:06:31 +00:00

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2026-06-26 00:07:00 +00:00

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2026-06-26 00:28:37 +00:00

Curse of empty mind: Allow for it to be discarded in the case of draw 1, pick 1. #33

moof commented

2026-07-02 14:00:36 +00:00

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We have decided on:

You draw as many cards as required
You pick as many as are required to add to your hand
You should then discard or play down to you hand limit if necessary.

Specifically, Curse of the Empty mind can be discarded in this case. The only difference is that it cannot be held in the hand at the end of the round.

It also means you can play any "discard y, draw x" cards before activating the curse.

We have decided on: - You draw as many cards as required - You pick as many as are required to add to your hand - You should then discard or play down to you hand limit if necessary. Specifically, Curse of the Empty mind *can* be discarded in this case. The only difference is that it cannot be held in the hand at the end of the round. It also means you can play any "discard y, draw x" cards *before* activating the curse.

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2026-07-02 14:18:07 +00:00

moof added this to the JetLag Germany July 2026 milestone

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